One of my pet peeves is watching Python help discussions get watered down to a point that it's very hard to troubleshoot what may be causing the actual problem per individual user.

First, let me say, I am no Python expert. I don't pretend to know how to solve any Python related problem. However, I have been watching Python topics unfold, and like always, I see the topics break down into these "here's how I solved my problem, perform the following steps like I did..."

Now, that's fine and dandy if you have the "EXACT" same problem as that user. But keep in mind, not all users are going to read that and also perform their own Python troubleshooting steps BEFORE taking that specific advice.

I prefer Rod's method: "Let's see if your Python is communicating properly before we proceed" approach. That's how it should be done. There is a whole slew of troubleshooting steps a person needs to take before they just randomly uninstall and reinstall different Python versions.

Things like, do you even HAVE Python installed? Where is it downloaded to? If so, the executable file syndrome may or may not apply. (I'll never understand why Windows has this "on again, off again" relationship with Python regarding executable files, but maybe it's just not meant for me to know). And most importantly, does the Python console show in your GIMP filters menu? A checklist of sorts needs to be run through, before making any other determination.

The Python site doesn't have any help guides for GIMP installations, and the GIMP-Python site doesn't cover troubleshooting for installation problems, etc.

Python issues have become the kind of soup you can't tell what's in it, so I started giving some thought to creating a Python Troubleshooting Guide and posting it on the Registry, (it could also be scattered about other sites and blogs to get into the roll of search engine results). My heart's in it, but I know I am not the right person to "write it". More experienced, Python knowledgeable people should provide the tips for problem-solving/troubleshooting. I know I'd forget and leave something out that could be critical to troubleshooting. The guide should take the user from the very first critical step to the last in the order that even the most commonly overlooked issue prevents Python from working, gets solved first, and thus avoids the need to proceed on with the list.

I just see too many people uninstalling and reinstalling different Python versions, willy nilly, and claiming that is the fix. It could have been something as simple as a variable path registry needing to be changed but the user thinks its the different version that made the difference.

Anyone out there interested in helping make this Python Troubleshooting Guide a reality? We could run the gamut of necessary steps here, and it could then become the guide, itself. Which could then be copied to other blogs and websites to get more exposure.

I found this guide to be pretty complete for Windows.
http://www.gimpusers.com/tutorials/inst ... -6-windows

Unfortunately, that doesn't troubleshoot for when THAT particular set of instructions doesn't work. It's part of the problem. People perform this tutorial, it doesn't work, then a whole new set of instructions gets created (times the number of users who fail with this tutorial) = bloated, lacking any real solution.

That being said, this tutorial worked for me in Windows, but I find new users who follow this and fail, come back with a whole different set of instructions, and this is causing more problems for others, currently and down the road. In essence, no one is PROVING what caused the fail, they are just assuming their steps FIXED the problem, and that is not necessarily true.

The solution, what I am proposing here, is a series of steps for when the well-known tutorial steps DON'T work. Sort of a "let's figure out why it didn't work" guide before performing all these uninstalls and reinstalls. It's a bit much, and impatiently rash.

What kind of threw me was that console, fog, and all other python scripts that come with the Gimp-2.6.11 installer all work with Python25.... go figure.
I am not entirely sure how Python reads certain scripts, or how certain versions of Python read certain scripts.Or maybe certain scripts are created with certain versions of Python and have to be used to execute them.
BUT...............
To get some, (but not all), of the Python scripts not installed with Gimp-2.6.11 to work i had to Install Python26, then add the path to its install, (RESTART), and then add pyGTK,PyCAIRO, and PyOBJECT.
RESTART AGAIN
Windows does pretty well with Python if you install it properly.
In my opinion the path should automatically be added or at least be an install option.
Windows 7 64 bit has a hard time with Python because as far as i know, Gimp-2.6.11 does not come in that flavor yet like Gimp-2.7.3.

I am kind of wondering why no-one has tried to compile a Gimp-2.6.11 64 bit version.Maybe they need the 64 bit resources (development setup). I know this is why Blender hasn't been compiled in 64 bit yet.

I would have to say that if you are having a problem with Python on 64 bit platforms, download the 2.7.3 version with Python 2.7 installed.
Parthas compile.
Most of the python scripts work well with it (just a few deprecation errors), but they will run fine.Run your filter and then transfer your work back to Gimp-2.6.11.This could probably be done with Shellout.
Or just re-open the work in Gimp-2.6.11

I have found only one script that will not run on Gimp-2.7.3 and that is Bytes and Pixels Word Art python script.All Bytes and Pixel's scripts work other than that one.I have no idea why.Other than the fact that Gimp-2.7.3 runs with Python-2.7.

Mahvin, I think the problem is also compounded by the level of computer expertise the person has.

"Python Installation and Troubleshooting for Dummys" - an ambitious project. I hope you find the knowledgeable person(s) to help. (I ain't one.)

Ambitious, and crazy... (would be more accurate for describing my goal).

I think mahvin you are one of the most dedicated people around here and I think I do know what my personal problem is with python scripts...I just dont know how to fix it. And I think you hit the nail on the head in the early discussions we had about it and that is, I have to get them running..execute the script...trouble is I dont know how to do that. I have discovered that all of those little black boxes I have in screenshots are in fact what you would call an executable file...well some are any way...and I am wondering if I actually have the text version of the script...should I just copy and paste it into the python console on GIMP....who knows and am I prepared to run the risk of losing all my GIMP extras,,,well..what have I got to lose really if it works...and yet...it just doesnt seem the right thing to do...

For Python scripts, the source file is the program file. Basically, your Python file (e.g., "hello.py") is associated with the "python.exe" executable; so when you open a .py file, it is "opened" in "python.exe" (just as a .txt file might be opened in Notepad, a .xcf file will be opened in GIMP, an .xls file will be opened in Excel, ...). The "python.exe" program will then read the text contained in the .py file and interpret it as programming instructions.

When the python.exe program "opens" the .py file, it first checks whether the .py file has its execute attribute set and refuses to run the code in the file if it is not. Whether this is for better or worse, you will have to decide for yourself; however, there is no technical reason that this needs to be (on Windows, anyway) because it is the python.exe file which is actually executing, NOT the .py file. Nonetheless, this means that your .py file will appear as an executable program (a black box in your screenshots?).

Note that none of the above has anything to do with GIMP, it is true for all .py files. As far as GIMP is concerned, Python code in a .py file is just another executable binary which gets "opened" -- the fact that "opening" the .py file results in Windows running another program is of no significance (to GIMP).

One of mine is that very often the information to troubleshoot such problems is in the Gimp console, and despite repeated calls to get that output, no one ever bothered...

I'm a mac user so I believe it may be a slightly different thing for us. GIMP for mac comes with python already in it. or at least thats waht I understand...or...it doesnt need python because its already built in to the mac operating system.

First we may consider the different OS

1 for linux no problem at all not need of a guide because python is already included

2 for Mac i am not competent

3 for windows the real problem may be solved only when packaging all the other method look for me as workaround.
For packaging i don't mean is up to the developers on the contrary developers can't do much about the only responsable and the only that may fix is who prepare the installer

would be more then possible compile gimp as did Partha with gimp 2.7.3 where python work out of the box
And that look as most the friendly and simple solution (no so simple for who package but Partha proof it possible).


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then the guide...i don't think the problem is the guide there are 2 pack, one older mine, one from gimptrick, both works
(gimptrick pack is more updated but that doesn't make any pratical difference.

the only "magic" trick that can make the difference is reported in my pack:
it is simply reload the computer twice (after installing python, after installing all the other libraries )during the process , it is not strictly needed but THAT solved many case of misterious failure.

For the rest i think that there is nothing wrong with instrution, not at least with mine or from gimptrick.

The problem is that few really read and follow the instrutions even if are few line

i may repeat and highlight the most commune error

1)
The most frequent error for use the "all included pack" is think that since both pack are a bit old their content may need to be updated, so instead then use what inside trhey will search and install the most recent versions of everything

Then nothing will work because the newest version are not supported:
for python is needed 2.5 maybe 2.6 is supported surely 2.7 would not work, same problem for the libraries


2) the second error is not follow the indication to install python in the most simple way,as default then Python would be in C:/python and that is correct....
..but somebody think all program should be installed in Program Files and will try try to point the installer or move all ins python files there.
And if in "Program Files" python will not be found by gimp
3)

third the sequence

1 install python (and to be on safest side Reload the PC...reload is not strictly needed but may help to avoid misterious failures)
2 install the other libraries following the correct sequence, and again reload

last and make attention because so many goof here ,when everything is ready
Gimp has to be reinstalled using the "custom" option.

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Onestly i don't believe that may be misterius failures if installing Gimptrick pack following her instrution,that are quite clear.
Error come to follow her instrution but without using the content of the pack, but newer versions, or using the content without follow the instrution

Anyway in case of trouble there is only 1 thing to do, start gimp from command line in verbose mode
open the windows console and type there
C:/( path_to_gimp.exe-here)/gimp.exe --verbose


then copy the output from console and past in a help forum.

Again for me the real solution for windows users would be have python pre installed as in the gimp 2.7.3 from partha, because in 90% of case Windows users are trained to NEVER read a README file and that is a very heavy handicap

Not so much watering down as it is always hard to troubleshoot anything at a distance with only the bare-bones of information. Very often the OP does not give OS (and remember there are people out there still using a Gimp that works on XP sp1 right through to Vista 64 bit as well as all flavours of linux and Mac), Gimp version etc.



You will never have the exact same problem due to variations in the OS, especially windows. Who knows what personal windows settings or installed applications such as AV might be causing the problem.
All you can do is give advice based on your own knowledge of what works on your machine. I prefer a caveat of "this works with my 32 bit XP sp3 and gimp 2.6.x" and this does not work.



It might well be a registry entry, python 2.6 and the rest of it install several thousand reg entries, who is to know, but a more practical solution might well be a reinstall.

For the record yesterday I found python 2.6 would work in parallel with 2.5 on a XP sp3 VM. Today a few tests in a Vista 32 bit VM and no-good. I had to uninstall 2.5 and reinstall everything. That was using the latest python 2.6 and the gtk-all-in-one. In a Vista 64 bit VM, the 32 bit "pythons" and gimp 2.6.11 also installed and worked. Now these are just my experiences. I can't guarantee that it will work for everyone but there is a good probability that it will.




Those are Rods findings and I second them 100% but I am sure there are people out there who still can not get it installed despite their best efforts.

So I think a 'collected wisdom' is a great idea but given the diversity of the subject and peoples computer skills, it will be an enormous task.
Just a thought - maybe a wiki.

edit:

There was a half decent wiki that I had bookmarked, seems to have vanished - anyone know?
http://wiki.osphoto.org/index.php/Main_Page
A search brings up a couple of new comers, maybe an entry into one of these?

As mahvin says always read the read-me. I can never find the python 2.6/pygtk sites on first try but the pygtk one is here
http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/binaries/win32/pygtk/2.24/pygtk-all-in-one.README and is well worth a look.

Rich:

Pretty much everything you stated is what is a part of the problem. No one bothers to run their problems through a checklist before making changes (reinstalling). They just do it without checking first. And then I read these types of comments as excuses, "I don't know how to do command line." "I don't mess with command line/terminal/etc..."

They fear using command line/terminal will "break" things... I always wonder why that is. One of the very first things I did with my first computer was jump into BASIC with DOS, I believe the first version was QBASIC (I could be wrong), that's the beauty of computing, exploring it's potential.

So, I stand behind my "watered down" comments. Because they are repeated, over-used, constantly echoed as the "fix for everything" when the person giving the said "watered down" comments has no Python skills, they just managed to re-install the original version and got the older Python version working again. I suspect because the variables path is once again correct, but that's just a guess on my part. Another reason this guide is needed, for any OS, any flavor of Python.

Ofnuts is right, people don't follow instructions well. So, it becomes even MORE evident to me that not only is my goal of creating this guide ambitious and crazy, it's most likely a big waste of time for me and anyone who attempts it. Not because of any defeatist attitude, but because it will most likely never get used for troubleshooting Python as it was intended.

I will try again

1 for normal gimp 2.6, the stable version, doesn't matter what 2.6 and doesn't matter if with XP, Vista or 7

this pack include everything also clear instrution http://gimptricks.deviantart.com/art/In ... -155766287

Just do not try to be smart ...the correct version of Python( 2.5 )is already included so don't search for more recent version of python, don't install the last 2.7 will not work, the 2.6 will work but only on the most recent stable

Keep easy avoid to mess around looking for a more update version of libraries ,in this case newer version would not give any advantage ,but cause failures

Exactly the same for all the libraries, i am certain most of failure come from searching for the "most recent version of libraries" instead then the one already tested and and packed.

If something doesn't work simply repeat the steps BUT RELOADING the PC each time, that a bit boring but solved all cases of misterious failure i heard

Only once i did meet in the real life ,somebody that i had helped by mail and with no success to install python, he sweared he did follow exactly all instrution with no luck

But was no true he didn't follow the instrution because the first thing i seen in its portable was python 2.7 installed, instead then 2.5...I asked why, why you told me to have followed my how to but you didn't

And he replied "But i saw was a more recent version available i like all my sw updated"

" Follow the instrution BUT" is very commune and then the reason of failure is clear, even if hidden within the BUT

So all my trobleshoot is

1) download gimptrick pack http://gimptricks.deviantart.com/art/In ... -155766287

2 ) SWITCH ON THE BRAIN CELLS

3) open (with 7zip, or zipgenius or...) the zip , and extract the content


4) Install everything in the sequence described in the included instrution
FOR VISTA and 7 may help before run the installer ,RIGHT click on the installer and chose "Run As administrator"

5) DON'T Forgot that IF gimp is already installed MUST BE REINSTALLED and not "normally" but using the cuistom option

FOR VISTA and 7 may help before run the installer ,RIGHT click on the installer and chose "Run As administrator"

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about a better solution is simple convince somebody to compile the stable gimp as partha did for 2.7:
that is the only really user friendly solution.

however after i installed python and gimp on several PC, with xp, vista and 7 i am really convinced there are no other reason for failure except don't trust the Pack and don't follow the instrution

PC:

In a nutshell, the key for most users is "Don't deviate from the instructions, follow them to a T."

Someone mentioned this earlier, most reasons for failure is because the user deviated from the instructions and claimed they didn't. It's hard to distinguish, over the internet, who is being truthful, and who isn't. But the case you mentioned with the person you helped, sounds like most scenarios I had with friends and family members not following my instructions. They all claimed they did, but some little tidbit DID get omitted, and the discovery of this usually followed up with, "...oh well, I'm not as computer literate as you." GAH!

I'm no wizard, I just follow instructions, or try to follow them as best as I can understand them. Usually, most follow ups result in success. It's the head strong rebellious mentality I witness that perplexes me. I mean, you want the program to work, right? Why rebel against the instructions or forego them entirely?

@Mahvin

Yes more exactly is
1)Grab the pack created to make your life easier
2)Use ONLY what in the pack
3) Read and follow the instrution

anyway you nija'd me below my previous reply

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For windows i i can't see or imagine technical problems, only problem of attitude of both users and developers
(for developers the point is that they come mostly from unix and so they will not like much gimp build with python preinstalled, but are not the gimp developers to build gimp installer )

For Mac instead may be luck of information, in that case a pack with a how to, better if illustrated will surely help

But the real solution again is not a guide but installers for Windows and Mac that or include python and libraries,
or would check for python (as OpenOffice installers check for Java and if not found prompt to install, even calling the browser to openi java download page.)

You may have something there, PC. A fool-proof, you can't go wrong, Python installation package. But why am I sounding so hopeful? The words "No good deed goes unpunished..." are echoing in my ears...

Is there such a thing as a fool-proof installer?

We may always give useful warnings as

"Caution, do not run the Python installer when taking a shower with your computer, there is risk of electric shock"

Or " Don't install python while driving your motorbike on the highway, even more if you are drunk"

Something tells me they WOULD try those things, just from the mere mentioned of them.

Maybe, reverse psychology?

DO NOT use these instructions, they will cause you to successfully load Python and ruin your whole day!

Python should just come with an option to add the variable path in my opinion.Then if that option is chosen it should tell you to restart your computer.
I believe that would solve most problems.
@ PC - PC i could get all installed scripts (Python) to work with Python 2.5.So Gimp-2.6.11 does run its own installed scripts with python 2.5
As soon as i added more scripts i needed Python 2.6.

I also would like to add the newest PyGTK installer for windows installs all 3 modules needed for Python-Fu but it did NOT work for me.I had to use the older installers separately to get it to work.

What folks need to also realize is that you CAN have several different versions of Python running in Windows successfully.
I have Python25, Python26, and Python27 all running fine together on Windows.I need each version for different Programs.

So if you download or install a certain script or program that calls for Python - 2.7 to run correctly and you only have Python-2.6 install it and add the variable value in your paths variable list RESTART your computer, and you should be fine.

Maybe we should add a Python - adding the variable thread to help?