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 Post subject: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:54 pm  (#1) 
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I've set the Page File for my C: drive to No Page File and my D: to System Managed.
Doing this places the Page File on my D: drive,
which is the faster of the 2 drives.
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The question is,
should I still have a Swap File on my C: drive and also one on my D: drive?

Here's a screenshot of the C: drive.
Notice the Swap File and no Page File.
Image

Here's a screenshot of the D: drive.
Make note of the Page File and also the Swap File.
Image
I was under the impression,
that if I disable the Page Files on a specific drive,
that both Page and Swap Files shouldn't be present on this drive?
Is it normal to have 2 Swap Files of the same size on different drives?

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:29 pm  (#2) 
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If you have a separate physical drive, it's best to use that drive for your swap file for starters. Yes; you should have a swap file for a variety of reasons but won't outline them here (even if you have a large amount of RAM; I have 12Gs for instance which is considered large) but how Windows handles crashes can be an issue without a swap file for instance. Trust me; there's no such thing as a perfect OS. In case you may think that it would be a cool ideal to use a Ramdisk for your Swap file, let's just say, do not do that either. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:43 pm  (#3) 
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lylejk wrote:
If you have a separate physical drive,
it's best to use that drive for your swap file for starters.
Yes;
you should have a swap file for a variety of reasons but won't outline them here
(even if you have a large amount of RAM; I have 12Gs for instance which is considered large)
but how Windows handles crashes can be an issue without a swap file for instance.
Trust me;
there's no such thing as a perfect OS.
In case you may think that it would be a cool ideal to use a Ramdisk for your Swap file,
let's just say, do not do that either. :)

I'm not sure if you're answering my question or giving me more information?
:puzzled
Yes I do have a separate physical drive,
that being my D drive.
I have my D drive set as the drive that will hold/contain the page file.
I just don't understand why both my C and D drive(s) contain a Swap File of the same size,
ie. 256MG,
if only the D drive contains the Page File?
Shouldn't there only be one Swap File and not two?

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:52 pm  (#4) 
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Yeah; if you choose a separate drive for your swap file, you will find that a fractional size swap file will still show up on your main drive (why, I don't know; had been the case since I can remember). :)

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:41 am  (#5) 
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lylejk wrote:
Yeah;
if you choose a separate drive for your swap file,
you will find that a fractional size swap file will still show up on your main drive
(why, I don't know; had been the case since I can remember). :)

I didn't know that,
but both files are identical in size.
Image
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I think I could create a symbolic link for the C drive's Swap File to use the D drive's Swap File.
I would then have a 0 byte Swap File on the C drive,
(the symbolic link at original location)
and a 256 MB Swap File on the D drive.
That sounds like it would work,
what do you think Lyle?

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:55 am  (#6) 
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The limiting thing in hard disks (of the "rotating rust" kind, not the "still silicon" ones) is the access time. You reduce the average access time by having more moving arms, ie, more disks. In other words, you should spread your pagefile.sys on as many physical drives as possible. swapfile.sys is a new thing in Win8, it doesn't grow very big (256M).

But a lylejk says, in Windows it is mostly used to slow down the system when you are getting close to your memory limit, and you don't normally run with a significant amount of swap. You can even run with no swap at all, in some case it is more efficient: I used to run a WinXP that would swap out things for no reason, when coming back from lunch the computer would take ages to get back to work, needing to read back all the swapped-out memory; removing the swap entirely made it lightning fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:28 am  (#7) 
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ofnuts wrote:
The limiting thing in hard disks (of the "rotating rust" kind, not the "still silicon" ones) is the access time. You reduce the average access time by having more moving arms, ie, more disks. In other words, you should spread your pagefile.sys on as many physical drives as possible. swapfile.sys is a new thing in Win8, it doesn't grow very big (256M).

But a lylejk says, in Windows it is mostly used to slow down the system when you are getting close to your memory limit, and you don't normally run with a significant amount of swap. You can even run with no swap at all, in some case it is more efficient: I used to run a WinXP that would swap out things for no reason, when coming back from lunch the computer would take ages to get back to work, needing to read back all the swapped-out memory; removing the swap entirely made it lightning fast.

I have considered installing an SSD.
However, my motherboard/BIOS doesn't support AHCI mode.
I would need to run the SSD in IDE mode, which means I can't fully utilize an SSD's full potential.
Even so, I think it would still be faster then both my WD Black HDD.
Are you suggesting that the swapfile.sys be removed and to perhaps add another pagefile.sys?

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:10 am  (#8) 
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I'm saying to completely ignore the swapfile.sys. And yes, spreading over several drives will likely create a second pagefile.sys.

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:45 am  (#9) 
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ofnuts wrote:
I'm saying to completely ignore the swapfile.sys. And yes, spreading over several drives will likely create a second pagefile.sys.

So don't remove the swapfile(s), just ignore it/them?
Spreading what over several drives?
What is it that I should spread and how does this create pagefile(s)?
If you're talking about spreading the page file over all my drives, then I would have a page file and swap file for every drive, right?
I have to set the page file size, or let the OS do it form me. The other option would be to not have a page file and no page file, no swap file.
Maybe I'm confused.

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:34 am  (#10) 
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So don't remove the swapfile(s), just ignore it/them?

Yes

Spreading what over several drives?

The memory swapping, which is done with pagefile.sys (swapfile.sys is for application "swapping", actually a way to hibernate them individually).

What is it that I should spread and how does this create pagefile(s)?

You just tell windows that it can swap on specific drives, it will create the pagefile.sys where needed. This is at least how in worked in XP...

If you're talking about spreading the page file over all my drives, then I would have a page file and swap file for every drive, right?

pagefile.sys, yes; swapfile.sys, likely not, because this is a completely different animal.

I have to set the page file size, or let the OS do it form me. The other option would be to not have a page file and no page file, no swap file.

You can definitely let Windows allocate the file. However it tends to be on the greedy side (you don't need more than your amount of RAM, or even half of this) and the manual setup also lets you allocate the swap file (ie, pagefile.sys) once for all, which makes it more likely to be in one block (especially on a new disk), which improves performance by reducing arm movements. If you want to be really picky and use partitions on your disks, put the swap files in their own partition on each physical drive.

You can also run without any swap. This is another option. On Windows, swapping can do more harm than good, because the system drops to a crawl when it swaps in most cases. With swapping disabled, the RAM glutton application dies instead of killing the system.

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:37 pm  (#11) 
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ofnuts wrote:
So don't remove the swapfile(s), just ignore it/them?

Yes

Spreading what over several drives?

The memory swapping, which is done with pagefile.sys (swapfile.sys is for application "swapping", actually a way to hibernate them individually).

What is it that I should spread and how does this create pagefile(s)?

You just tell windows that it can swap on specific drives, it will create the pagefile.sys where needed. This is at least how in worked in XP...

If you're talking about spreading the page file over all my drives, then I would have a page file and swap file for every drive, right?

pagefile.sys, yes; swapfile.sys, likely not, because this is a completely different animal.

I have to set the page file size, or let the OS do it form me. The other option would be to not have a page file and no page file, no swap file.

You can definitely let Windows allocate the file. However it tends to be on the greedy side (you don't need more than your amount of RAM, or even half of this) and the manual setup also lets you allocate the swap file (ie, pagefile.sys) once for all, which makes it more likely to be in one block (especially on a new disk), which improves performance by reducing arm movements. If you want to be really picky and use partitions on your disks, put the swap files in their own partition on each physical drive.

You can also run without any swap. This is another option. On Windows, swapping can do more harm than good, because the system drops to a crawl when it swaps in most cases. With swapping disabled, the RAM glutton application dies instead of killing the system.

Thanks Ofnuts. :bigthup

I've been using only a single page file placed on my D drive for a long time now.
With 8GB of RAM, I was setting the size at 12288MB with a maximum of 14336MB.
I may stick to this method.

Also... would having another page file of the same size on the C drive, be of any real use or benefit?

I was more concerned with the two separate wasp file and having only one page file.
When one places the page file on a different drive other then the C drive. The swap file on the C drive doesn't move with it.
There's no way to remove the swapfile.sys from the C drive, without resorting to creating a symbolic link for it, pointing to the swap file on my D drive.

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:54 pm  (#12) 
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Wallace wrote:
I've been using only a single page file placed on my D drive for a long time now.
With 8GB of RAM, I was setting the size at 12288MB with a maximum of 14336MB.
I may stick to this method.
Way too much. 8GB would have been more than enough. Also, having min=max means that everything is pre-allocated and stays together on the disk.

Wallace wrote:
Also... would having another page file of the same size on the C drive, be of any real use or benefit?
Same size, no. You need at best 8GB of swap, but that can be 2 files of 4GB each.

Wallace wrote:
I was more concerned with the two separate wasp file and having only one page file.
When one places the page file on a different drive other then the C drive. The swap file on the C drive doesn't move with it.
There's no way to remove the swapfile.sys from the C drive, without resorting to creating a symbolic link for it, pointing to the swap file on my D drive.

Leave the swapfile.sys alone and ignore it. It is only for the "Metro" apps and won't grow big.

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:18 pm  (#13) 
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ofnuts wrote:
Wallace wrote:
I've been using only a single page file placed on my D drive for a long time now.
With 8GB of RAM, I was setting the size at 12288MB with a maximum of 14336MB.
I may stick to this method.
Way too much. 8GB would have been more than enough. Also, having min=max means that everything is pre-allocated and stays together on the disk.

Wallace wrote:
Also... would having another page file of the same size on the C drive, be of any real use or benefit?
Same size, no. You need at best 8GB of swap, but that can be 2 files of 4GB each.

Wallace wrote:
I was more concerned with the two separate wasp file and having only one page file.
When one places the page file on a different drive other then the C drive. The swap file on the C drive doesn't move with it.
There's no way to remove the swapfile.sys from the C drive, without resorting to creating a symbolic link for it, pointing to the swap file on my D drive.

Leave the swapfile.sys alone and ignore it. It is only for the "Metro" apps and won't grow big.

The more I talk about this the more confused I become.
I'm just going to set the page file a1 1.5 times my ram and forget about it.
Thanks again Ofnuts. :bigthup

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:57 pm  (#14) 
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Haven't toyed with pagefile size in ages. Decided to set my XP VM to no pagefile (have 2Gs allocated to my XP VM). It is now quite spiffy, Wallace; I'll let you know if my VM becomes unstable (not too concerned with crashes to my VM since I can quickly recover to a golden set point at will). :)

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:03 pm  (#15) 
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lylejk wrote:
Haven't toyed with pagefile size in ages. Decided to set my XP VM to no pagefile (have 2Gs allocated to my XP VM). It is now quite spiffy, Wallace; I'll let you know if my VM becomes unstable (not too concerned with crashes to my VM since I can quickly recover to a golden set point at will). :)

Okay Lyle, thanks.
I have 8GM of RAM, so I've set my page file for the C drive at 8000MB and the D drive at 12000MG.
Do you think that's overkill?
Also, would you recommend I use only one page file on a different drive other than the C drive?

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:33 pm  (#16) 
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Actually, that's what Windows recommends. If you just select the let Windows handle this option, you would be fine (that's what I did for my Win10 Host). Not had any issues other than an occasional issue with waking up from hybernate (but when it reboots from that crash, all's well but of course you have a new session of Windows). Has happened 3 or 4 times the past few months now. Started a thread at Windows Secrets about this. Anyway, I am, so far, happy that I set my XP VM pagefile to zero. It's definitely helpful for my XP VM anyway (but still I will have to worry about stability over time). I would not do this for my Host though. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Page and Swap File Question (Win10)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:36 pm  (#17) 
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lylejk wrote:
Actually, that's what Windows recommends. If you just select the let Windows handle this option, you would be fine (that's what I did for my Win10 Host). Not had any issues other than an occasional issue with waking up from hybernate (but when it reboots from that crash, all's well but of course you have a new session of Windows). Has happened 3 or 4 times the past few months now. Started a thread at Windows Secrets about this. Anyway, I am, so far, happy that I set my XP VM pagefile to zero. It's definitely helpful for my XP VM anyway (but still I will have to worry about stability over time). I would not do this for my Host though. :)

Thanks Lyle. :bigthup
You and Ofnuts have given me then enough suggestions.
I appreciate your guys feedback immensely.
The information that you both provided, was more then I've received form the Win10 Forum about this same issue.
On the Win10 Fourm, It seems that I spent more time trying to get people to understand my question. With little to no suggestion. :roll:

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