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 Post subject: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:56 pm  (#1) 
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Hey. I'm making my own book covers (for ebook and paperback) and I just started using cartoon-type images. So I've just encountered svg images, which seem ideal because I can scale them up or down and not lose image quality. But they also seem to be very low in the DPI department.(Like 90 when most of the images I use are 300.) And I've tried to learn about it https://quickleft.com/blog/choosing-svg-jpeg-png/ but I'm still not sure what's going to work best. As far as I know, almost all book cover designers use jpgs. But like I said I'm into images that are more clipart lately. I use the layer mask a lot so I don't know if svgs work well with that. I need to start buying the images so which file formats are best for somebody like me? Many thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:48 pm  (#2) 
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png is lossless, meaning its superior to jpg, which is a compressed file format.

svg's are vectorfiles. you can open them in a program like Inkscape (or Adobe Illustrator) and export at any size you like without quality loss, because vectors can be scaled infinitely.
You can also import svg's into Gimp's path tab, but that wont give you anything but an unfilled path (so no colours, no filters, no effects).

DPI is only relevant for printing. With enough pixelsize you can export an image at any dpi you like.
The good thing about vectorfiles is that you can export at the required dpi (in a vectorgraphicsprogram).


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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:14 am  (#3) 
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When you import anything in Gimp by open-as-layers, copy/paste, drag-n-drop it takes the ppi value of the base image.

Import a SVG and it is converted to a bitmap so get the size setting in the import dialogue correct first time. No good importing something that ends up as a tiny bitmap that has to be scaled up.

A typical ebook cover might be 1600 x 2400 pix ( @ 300 ppi prints 5.33" x 8.0") which is a reasonable size for quality printing.

What format to save?
With the likelihood of text in the image, png is best, jpeg tends to introduce artefacts around text. However, there might be file size limitations that makes jpeg inevitable.

You should also look at using a dedicated DTP application such as Scribus for 'assembling' a book cover.

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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:31 am  (#4) 
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I see you haven't quite comprehended the difference of pixel and vector graphics yet.
SVG is not low in dpi department, it does not have dpi as long as you keep it in vector format.
When you import it into pixel editor like Gimp, it converts to pixels.
If your aim is a clipart type cover, save yourself from unnecessary extra steps and do it from start to finish using Inkscape and print at maximum resolution.
That's the simplest way to do it.
Why not do the cover yourself?


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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:01 am  (#5) 
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Nidhogg has a good point if the cover is entirely a vector illustration. There times when you might want to use Gimp and import a vector.

A couple of screenshots to illustrate importing an SVG.

I have my book cover in Gimp 1600 x 2400 pixels with a print resolution set to 300 ppi. In Gimp only the pixel size really matters. Import a SVG File -> Open as Layers and you see something like this: https://i.imgur.com/FJCWppC.jpg
At this point it has a width in pixels, and a resolution that comes from the application that made it. A bit of measuring tells me that it is going to be too small.

I can change the size in pixels to a suitable size, the resolution remains the same: https://i.imgur.com/3DTPBF4.jpg

Do not be fooled, the resulting image is still 300 ppi, the value you set when making the canvas. Check in Image -> Print Size https://i.imgur.com/LhhYwaY.jpg

Remember, the 'vector' is no longer a vector and can not be scaled without loss, it is a raster (bitmap). If you want it at a different size, import the svg again.

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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:34 am  (#6) 
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SVG supports both vector and bitmap while PNG is only bitmap. Can make a difference if you use a lot of vector graphics and need scaling. Regardless, for the actually cover, eventually you'll need plates printed. So long as the resolution is good enough, PNG/JPG files is more than good enough. All that really matters is you use the format that your publisher wants with the proper embedded color profiles as applicable. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:21 pm  (#7) 
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Konstantin wrote:
png is lossless, meaning its superior to jpg, which is a compressed file format.

svg's are vectorfiles. you can open them in a program like Inkscape (or Adobe Illustrator) and export at any size you like without quality loss, because vectors can be scaled infinitely.
You can also import svg's into Gimp's path tab, but that wont give you anything but an unfilled path (so no colours, no filters, no effects).

DPI is only relevant for printing. With enough pixelsize you can export an image at any dpi you like.
The good thing about vectorfiles is that you can export at the required dpi (in a vectorgraphicsprogram).


Thanks Konstantin. I am just getting familiar with all these file types, and I just got Inkscape and am familiarizing myself with that. Yeah, the ability to scale vector files up is really appealing to me. I still have a lot of questions though.

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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:59 pm  (#8) 
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rich2005 wrote:
When you import anything in Gimp by open-as-layers, copy/paste, drag-n-drop it takes the ppi value of the base image.

Import a SVG and it is converted to a bitmap so get the size setting in the import dialogue correct first time. No good importing something that ends up as a tiny bitmap that has to be scaled up.

A typical ebook cover might be 1600 x 2400 pix ( @ 300 ppi prints 5.33" x 8.0") which is a reasonable size for quality printing.

What format to save?
With the likelihood of text in the image, png is best, jpeg tends to introduce artefacts around text. However, there might be file size limitations that makes jpeg inevitable.

You should also look at using a dedicated DTP application such as Scribus for 'assembling' a book cover.


Hi Rich. Thanks. I'm kind of getting overwhelmed with all this stuff. It seems to me a lot of clipart is svg files. I would just like to use some of those. And so:

1) Can I scale an svg file in GIMP?
2) If not, how do I scale it in Inkscape?
3) (For a book cover on Amazon, I need to upload a .jpg file to Kindle Direct Publishing.) So can I use jpgs, pngs and svgs in GIMP and then then save it as an xcf and export it as a jpg?)
4) Lots of times the same image is available as a png and a svg. If I can get a big enough png, why get an svg?
5) How would Scribus benefit cover making?

Good tip about changing the ppi when importing into GIMP.

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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:12 pm  (#9) 
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Nidhogg wrote:
I see you haven't quite comprehended the difference of pixel and vector graphics yet.
SVG is not low in dpi department, it does not have dpi as long as you keep it in vector format.
When you import it into pixel editor like Gimp, it converts to pixels.
If your aim is a clipart type cover, save yourself from unnecessary extra steps and do it from start to finish using Inkscape and print at maximum resolution.
That's the simplest way to do it.
Why not do the cover yourself?


Thanks Nidhogg. Yeah, I'm just starting to learn the differences between these file formats. It took me a while to figure out png and jpg. Now bitmaps, vectors, svgs. And yeah, I'd like to do a clipart cover, but Inkscape is still pretty foreign to me. Some questions:

1) Can I export the final product created in Inkscape as a .jpg?
2) Does Inkscape have the ability to do dropshadows on text?
3) What's the learning curve like on Inkscape?

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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:40 pm  (#10) 
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rich2005 wrote:
Nidhogg has a good point if the cover is entirely a vector illustration. There times when you might want to use Gimp and import a vector.

A couple of screenshots to illustrate importing an SVG.

I have my book cover in Gimp 1600 x 2400 pixels with a print resolution set to 300 ppi. In Gimp only the pixel size really matters. Import a SVG File -> Open as Layers and you see something like this: https://i.imgur.com/FJCWppC.jpg
At this point it has a width in pixels, and a resolution that comes from the application that made it. A bit of measuring tells me that it is going to be too small.

I can change the size in pixels to a suitable size, the resolution remains the same: https://i.imgur.com/3DTPBF4.jpg

Do not be fooled, the resulting image is still 300 ppi, the value you set when making the canvas. Check in Image -> Print Size https://i.imgur.com/LhhYwaY.jpg

Remember, the 'vector' is no longer a vector and can not be scaled without loss, it is a raster (bitmap). If you want it at a different size, import the svg again.


Thanks Rich but now every vector I open in GIMP is 300 dpi to start with. (The vectors are from Pixabay--maybe that has something to do with it.)


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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:44 pm  (#11) 
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lylejk wrote:
SVG supports both vector and bitmap while PNG is only bitmap. Can make a difference if you use a lot of vector graphics and need scaling. Regardless, for the actually cover, eventually you'll need plates printed. So long as the resolution is good enough, PNG/JPG files is more than good enough. All that really matters is you use the format that your publisher wants with the proper embedded color profiles as applicable. :)


Thanks lylejk. I think I've been making more work for myself than I need to. I haven't had any problems uploading ebook covers to Amazon as jpgs, and Createspace, which does the paperback, wants a pdf. If I have to use a svg I can scale it (if I ever learn how--lol) in Inkscape and then open it as layers in GIMP.

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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:55 pm  (#12) 
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iggy wrote:
1) Can I scale an svg file in GIMP?
You can scale a path. All the transformation tools in Gimp have options to apply to paths.

Quote:
2) If not, how do I scale it in Inkscape?
Its probably more a matter of exporting at the required pixelsize.

Quote:
3) (For a book cover on Amazon, I need to upload a .jpg file to Kindle Direct Publishing.) So can I use jpgs, pngs and svgs in GIMP and then then save it as an xcf and export it as a jpg?)
Yes

Quote:
4) Lots of times the same image is available as a png and a svg. If I can get a big enough png, why get an svg?
If you can find a png at the desired pixelsize there is no need to get it in vectorformat.

iggy wrote:
1) Can I export the final product created in Inkscape as a .jpg?
No, just png, but its no problem to convert a png into a jpg in Gimp.

Quote:
2) Does Inkscape have the ability to do dropshadows on text?
Yes.

Quote:
3) What's the learning curve like on Inkscape?
High, but depends on what you want to do. Doing some basic text operations or changing colours is easy.
Im sure the guys over at Inkscapeforum.com are dying to give you their support.


Last edited by Konstantin on Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:57 pm  (#13) 
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iggy wrote:
lylejk wrote:
SVG supports both vector and bitmap while PNG is only bitmap. Can make a difference if you use a lot of vector graphics and need scaling. Regardless, for the actually cover, eventually you'll need plates printed. So long as the resolution is good enough, PNG/JPG files is more than good enough. All that really matters is you use the format that your publisher wants with the proper embedded color profiles as applicable. :)


Thanks lylejk. I think I've been making more work for myself than I need to. I haven't had any problems uploading ebook covers to Amazon as jpgs, and Createspace, which does the paperback, wants a pdf. If I have to use a svg I can scale it (if I ever learn how--lol) in Inkscape and then open it as layers in GIMP.


PDFs support vector as well as bitmap formats too. PDFs are the best. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:15 pm  (#14) 
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Konstantin wrote:
iggy wrote:
1) Can I scale an svg file in GIMP?
You can scale a path. All the transformation tools in Gimp have options to apply to paths.

Quote:
2) If not, how do I scale it in Inkscape?
Its probably more a matter of exporting at the required pixelsize.

Quote:
3) (For a book cover on Amazon, I need to upload a .jpg file to Kindle Direct Publishing.) So can I use jpgs, pngs and svgs in GIMP and then then save it as an xcf and export it as a jpg?)
Yes

Quote:
4) Lots of times the same image is available as a png and a svg. If I can get a big enough png, why get an svg?
If you can find a png at the desired pixelsize there is no need to get it in vectorformat.

iggy wrote:
1) Can I export the final product created in Inkscape as a .jpg?
No, just png, but its no problem to convert a png into a jpg in Gimp.

Quote:
2) Does Inkscape have the ability to do dropshadows on text?
Yes.

Quote:
3) What's the learning curve like on Inkscape?
High, but depends on what you want to do. Doing some basic text operations or changing colours is easy.
Im sure the guys over at Inkscapeforum.com are dying to give you their support.


Thanks for the super information Konstantin. So helpful. Thanks for taking the time to answer the individual questions too. I've got a much better grasp of things now. :) I'll check out the Inkscape forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:16 pm  (#15) 
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lylejk wrote:
iggy wrote:
lylejk wrote:
SVG supports both vector and bitmap while PNG is only bitmap. Can make a difference if you use a lot of vector graphics and need scaling. Regardless, for the actually cover, eventually you'll need plates printed. So long as the resolution is good enough, PNG/JPG files is more than good enough. All that really matters is you use the format that your publisher wants with the proper embedded color profiles as applicable. :)


Thanks lylejk. I think I've been making more work for myself than I need to. I haven't had any problems uploading ebook covers to Amazon as jpgs, and Createspace, which does the paperback, wants a pdf. If I have to use a svg I can scale it (if I ever learn how--lol) in Inkscape and then open it as layers in GIMP.


PDFs support vector as well as bitmap formats too. PDFs are the best. :)


Thanks Lyle

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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:56 am  (#16) 
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1) Can I scale an svg file in GIMP?
2) If not, how do I scale it in Inkscape?
3) (For a book cover on Amazon, I need to upload a .jpg file to Kindle Direct Publishing.) So can I use jpgs, pngs and svgs in GIMP and then then save it as an xcf and export it as a jpg?)
4) Lots of times the same image is available as a png and a svg. If I can get a big enough png, why get an svg?
5) How would Scribus benefit cover making?

1. Well yes, but that is foolish and awkward. After you import vector to Gimp, path(s) and the pixel layer are separated. Yes you can scale the path but how does it help you with a lossy pixel layer? What would you use those paths for? You lose the easy editing possibilities that you would have in Inkscape (changing colors, gradients, easy path edits, moving elements etc) after importing vector into Gimp. Edit the vector in Inkscape to the point where you are satisfied, then export it to png or save and open the SVG in Gimp.
2. To scale a vector in Inkscape, you drag from corner and hold shift to keep the proportions. If you need accurate size, click the lock beside numerical input box before typing the size. Scaling is one of the most basic things and done pretty much same way in all editors, be it pixels or vectors.
3. Yes. You can combine anything Gimp opens and export it as jpg. Crank the quality slider up to max.
4. Once again, SVG because of the ability to edit every single part of it separately with ease. NOTE! This is only if the SVG you bought/downloaded is not a lame conversion. Some of the SVG clipart I have downloaded (free) from image sites were not real vectors, but pixel image saved in SVG format. If you purchase clipart however, they should be true editable vectors.
If the png is big enough, and you are happy with it as is, then it does not matter. Personally I favor vector over pixel every time when it's about clipart type images, logos etc.
5. No experience about Scribus. Using CorelDraw for press/print.

In my opinion it all comes to the question do you need to edit the SVG you purchased or not.
Good luck with your work.


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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:04 am  (#17) 
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@ iggy
Sorry, never got around to answering this..

Quote:
...Thanks Rich but now every vector I open in GIMP is 300 dpi to start with...


..and of course that dpi is irrelevant when you open that svg in Gimp, it is converted to a bitmap and in Gimp only the number of pixels matters.

Why use Scribus? It is free and you can get a CMYK pdf for printing out of it.
Some commercial printers might want one of the pdf X-1a/X-3/X-4 formats which Scribus can manage.

An example, mostly svg vector, with a small png transparent graphic. Opened in a pdf viewer on right side. Note the slight change in colours resulting from a RGB to CMYK conversion.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:10 pm  (#18) 
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Nidhogg wrote:
1) Can I scale an svg file in GIMP?
2) If not, how do I scale it in Inkscape?
3) (For a book cover on Amazon, I need to upload a .jpg file to Kindle Direct Publishing.) So can I use jpgs, pngs and svgs in GIMP and then then save it as an xcf and export it as a jpg?)
4) Lots of times the same image is available as a png and a svg. If I can get a big enough png, why get an svg?
5) How would Scribus benefit cover making?

1. Well yes, but that is foolish and awkward. After you import vector to Gimp, path(s) and the pixel layer are separated. Yes you can scale the path but how does it help you with a lossy pixel layer? What would you use those paths for? You lose the easy editing possibilities that you would have in Inkscape (changing colors, gradients, easy path edits, moving elements etc) after importing vector into Gimp. Edit the vector in Inkscape to the point where you are satisfied, then export it to png or save and open the SVG in Gimp.
2. To scale a vector in Inkscape, you drag from corner and hold shift to keep the proportions. If you need accurate size, click the lock beside numerical input box before typing the size. Scaling is one of the most basic things and done pretty much same way in all editors, be it pixels or vectors.
3. Yes. You can combine anything Gimp opens and export it as jpg. Crank the quality slider up to max.
4. Once again, SVG because of the ability to edit every single part of it separately with ease. NOTE! This is only if the SVG you bought/downloaded is not a lame conversion. Some of the SVG clipart I have downloaded (free) from image sites were not real vectors, but pixel image saved in SVG format. If you purchase clipart however, they should be true editable vectors.
If the png is big enough, and you are happy with it as is, then it does not matter. Personally I favor vector over pixel every time when it's about clipart type images, logos etc.
5. No experience about Scribus. Using CorelDraw for press/print.

In my opinion it all comes to the question do you need to edit the SVG you purchased or not.
Good luck with your work.



Thanks very much, Nidhogg. The scaling way you suggest does make it easy. And I've run into the fake .svgs already. (And didn't know what was going on.) I had no strong desire to scale an .svg in GIMP. It was just GIMP was all I knew. (I was in 'hope everything can be done in GIMP' mode.) I'm already getting more comfortable with Inkscape. I like your idea of doing the changes in Inkscape (on the .svg file) and then exporting it as a png, then importing it into GIMP. Appreciate the help. Gregg

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 Post subject: Re: Difference between png and svg and jpg for a book cover designer
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:12 pm  (#19) 
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rich2005 wrote:
@ iggy
Sorry, never got around to answering this..

Quote:
...Thanks Rich but now every vector I open in GIMP is 300 dpi to start with...


..and of course that dpi is irrelevant when you open that svg in Gimp, it is converted to a bitmap and in Gimp only the number of pixels matters.

Why use Scribus? It is free and you can get a CMYK pdf for printing out of it.
Some commercial printers might want one of the pdf X-1a/X-3/X-4 formats which Scribus can manage.

An example, mostly svg vector, with a small png transparent graphic. Opened in a pdf viewer on right side. Note the slight change in colours resulting from a RGB to CMYK conversion.

[ Image ]



Thanks Rich. Yes, I can see the difference in those images. But ugh, I'm just getting used to Inkscape. Maybe Scribus can be my next project.

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